You must only care about the horse race aspect of the election then.
There are people who don’t see “beat the other guy no matter what” as the aim of our great political project.
The aim of our great political project is “Lets work together to create a world worth living in, a world of broadly shared prosperity, a world with the infrastructure that is the envy of the world, a world where housing is a human right, and so are healthcare (including in the rural areas), retirement, food, education and transportation. Let’s work together to explore space and to discover new science. A world that’s unpolluted. A world where being poor is not a slow motion death sentence. A world where everyone is in a position to build some savings instead of living paycheck to paycheck. A world of internet connectivity as a human right, including in the most rural area. A world of net neutrality. A world of limited copyrights and limited patents. A world void of monopolies as a matter of principle. A world of personal bodily autonomy. A world where privacy is protected for most people but where the superrich have transparency requirements because they can greatly affect our wellbeing with a stroke of a pen. A world with a wealth ceiling and no billionaires.”
No shit dude. You need to focus on the present first, though, so that we can continue to work towards that future you speak of. Because right now, the authoritarians threatening to make that future inaccessible are more relevant.
That’s literally why the Democrats keep getting away with the pied piper shit and why things will never improve, that thinking right there.
It’s why they’ll always find and actively prop up the most extreme fascist to face off against to make their own terrible candidadte look better.
If Biden steps down it won’t be because of people like you. It will be because of the people who made it clear that they would not vote for Biden simply because he was the less evil.
So you want to throw away our democracy in order to teach the Dems a lesson? Have you ever considered the outcome of that? Grow up, and realize that sometimes we have to settle for the imperfect to ensure our future. You have no understanding of just how damaging another Trump term would be to America’s most vulnerable groups. That’s simply not acceptable to those of us who are actually considering the REALITY of our current system, instead of being led by emotion and frustration at its unfair nature.
Because his administrations track record over the last 3.5 years has been really good and they have made progress in a lot of areas. He has fucked up with Israel and he’s old, but the experts that he’s surrounded by that actually make the decisions will still be there if he wins. No President can just snap their fingers and make everything good, especially when the other parties goal is to obstruct and make counterprogress in everything. Quit reading headlines about his bumbled speech and look up the laundry lists of accomplishments from this admin.
especially when the other parties goal is to obstruct and make counterprogress in everything
He’s made 0 progress resolving that particular situation. The supreme court just handed him a blank check and the first thing he did was say he wouldn’t use it.
We have Chase Oliver (Site), and the rest of this thread is just cope, Dems ran the shittiest candidate possible to see what America would accept, and surprise its not Joe, literally every sane person I know has told me they refuse to vote Biden, but keep parroting blue no matter who, like you don’t sound deranged.
What country do you think you’re in? Do you know what a first-past-the-post system is? Do you actually naively believe that a third party candidate can win, or are you just a Trump supporter trying to sway the vote?
I am actually a Chase Oliver (Site) supporter. That Trump and Biden made sure to exclude him from all debate, despite him going to be on the ballot in all 50 states show Dems and Repubs are being as shitty as possible. Oliver is better by any comparison, and isn’t 8 decades old, but you know these folks rather talk about RFK’s brain worms even though its he is only currently eligible to run in 18 states.
Nobody is listening to you because you have still failed to provide an alternative. Biden is good enough for now. If he kicks the bucket then whatever, he has done good work so far (except for israel policy) and a blue VP is way better than a power hungry liar.
I didn’t like Hillary one bit. I don’t like Biden much more. But if folks had voted for Hillary, we’d not be in this mess and having this debate right now.
So yeah, maybe this time would be a good time to decide that lesser of two evils is a better choice than greater of two evils.
I hope they swap out Biden so people such as yourself might feel mollified enough not to help Trump get in again. The only thing “better” about Kamala Harris will be that people can STFU about age, but hey, I’ll take what I can get. She’ll pull us further right than Biden would though, mark my word.
Dude, reality has provided these two candidates. One is the sitting president, who always runs. If you have a problem with how we get our candidates, I probably agree with you, but we’ve already run that gauntlet for 2024. The time to change that process is before the general, not AT the general.
We have two viable candidates. One will destroy the country. The other will frustrate us with how little they do to improve it. NO OTHER candidate who shows up to replace Biden is going to change that description. It’s going to literally be the same two sentences. If you are going to vote in a way that helps Trump get in, at least have the honesty to recognize that’s what you are doing. You aren’t going to change shit for the better, you are just going to make it a faster slide into things getting worse. You will help Trump and his supporters while literally changing 0 things for the better.
Harris would also be the first female president and also the first woman of color to be president so we can check that box and stop worrying about it. Hillary’s hubris with wanting to be the first female president blinded her.
Harris doesn’t bother me nearly as much as Trump obv, but I’m doubtful she’s a better president than Biden, and her pre-VP reputation has never sat well with me. Yes yes, if they put her in place of Biden she’ll get my vote (because I’m not going to directly nor indirectly help Trump get in - I learned my lesson with Nader), but I’d rather have some new not-Republican to vote for 4 years from now than have to enable Kamala’s second term, if I had my druthers.
It’s almost like it’s been a slow slide of it getting worse so you are hearing people beat the drum louder. It’s what intelligent people call a logical reaction.
Look, I want fully automated gay space communism as much as the next guy.
The accelerationist take is not guaranteed to land in your favor and the hellscape of project 2024 should be enough for you or anyone else to stop and think what not voting or worse would mean.
And Project 2025 is now forever part of the Republican platform, so you’re quite literally saying that we will be forever stuck in desperate psuedo-survival mode, choosing the less evil candidate.
No, fuck that, people are tired of that. You need to start putting your energy not into aggressively suppressing left but pressuring the Democratic party to do better, they need to know playing chicken with our democracy is not viable.
It’s working, so yes, the general is just as good a time if not a better to apply pressure.
The Democratic establishment uses the general as a way to twistthe arms of voters, so if they do it there’s no reason voters can’t do it right back. It sounds like you’ve forgotten that the politicians are suppose to work for you in a democracy, not vice versa.
It sounds like you’ve forgotten that the politicians are suppose to work for you in a democracy, not vice versa.
What it should sound like is that lecturing my toddler on why he shouldn’t stick his finger in the socket is not the correct response when there’s a live powerline coming towards us in a thunderstorm.
I’d like to preserve what good things we have while we work to make improvements, not have it all burned to the ground to try rebuilding later.
Pressure them absolutely. Support progressive candidates. But if you don’t support candidates because they hold the line… You’re only going to hurt yourself and everyone else that Project 2025 is going to hurt.
Do you like having sex?
Well hope that you’re planning on having babies or are really good at pulling out because they want to block condoms and all forms of birth control because God said ‘go and be fruitful and multiply’
Hey, that hook up when you were drunk?
Sorry bud. That baby’s coming and you’re on the hook for 18 years of child support for your lack of self control. Sex is for babies after all.
Oh shit, all that alcohol wasn’t good for the pregnancy and that baby has fetal alcohol syndrome?
Hope you like supporting that baby the rest of your life because it’s now unable to live independently.
Hey look, you’re gay and you don’t have to worry about that? Sodomy is a sin, and you need to be barred from marriage and “learn God’s way”.
Oh boy, you’re not a Christian?
Well we can’t have that in God’s country. You need to be isolated from society. We can’t rush your filth affect the rest of society.
But you have your principles.
Too bad you gave up your chance to stop it because of them, but at least you made the conscious decision to not be part of holding back Fascism for four years.
But if we feel we must vote D “or else” how and why would the Democrats feel the need to offer meaningful reforms to their voters?
If I am a Democrat politician and I depend on billionaire good will $$$, I know I don’t even need to promise much to my voters, I just need to be less tyrannical and less insane than my friends across the isle. Then my goal is to work the system enough to get reelected, and after a few election cycles revolving door myself into a $300k a year “do nothing” job that one of my billionaire backers will have lined up for me assuming I don’t displease him.
The logic of this is inescapable. It means our only hope is for the Republicans to somehow become much more progressive so that the Dems actually need to work to compete.
The only way for a progressive voter to escape this conundrum is to signal to the Democrats that the Dems do NOT have our votes on lock. And the only way to signal that is to vote our conscience no matter what, even if it’s scary.
Bullshit; you’re concern trolling. That means there are only three possibilities, all of them bad:
You’re too dumb to see this as the existential threat to democracy that it is, and that now is not the time for an ignorant-of-game-theory protest vote.
One more - tankie accelerationist who thinks that there will be some mythical bloodless uprising or just outright doesn’t care that hundreds of millions would die in a collapse of the US.
Which I guess fits as a mix of 1 & 2, with a sprinkling of tankie on top?
The logic that is inescapable is that if the neofascist moviement captures America the only ‘meaningful reforms’ you’re going to get your whole life is a vast enshitfication project like 1930’s Germany.
I saw two worthless sundowning capitalist losers at the debate. Trump is a liar and is also senile, just less so compared to Biden. Trump lies 3x more than Biden. But neither candidate offers an even remotely positive and inspiring vision for America. Biden’s vision is “nothing will fundamentally change, tweaks around the edges.” Fuck that!
No one is getting a 3rd party candidate in the Presidential office today. Full stop, totally ridiculous idea, an absolute waste of a vote. Yes, a waste. It’s a vote that will do nothing but help Trump win.
Meaningful reforms don’t happen overnight, don’t happen with magical ghost candidates that don’t exist, or by “showing the Democrats you aren’t happy by voting against them”.
Meaningful reforms take time. Look at marijuana legislation. Incredibly popular support for, at a bare minimum, medical uses. We are talking nearly 50 years of fighting at a federal level, but local compassionate use has been around since the 1970s, despite efforts at the federal level to constantly make all marijuana use criminal. By the 90s there were several states with compassionate use ballot initiatives (though it took until 2000 for a state to legalize it through the legislature - Hawaii).
Despite democrats that were out there against use of cannabis for medical purposes, and the many, many, many Republican administrations who put up as many barriers as possible, we are now trending toward full legalization.
Should everyone have just given up because only some supported legalization, even medical-only? And let it be banned outright?
It’s the same with climate change legislation, it doesn’t have to be all at the federal level. And abortion access, protections for minorities, police reform, and so on, and so on.
So let’s be clear about one thing. The choices this election are Trump and Biden. You’re not getting any others.
You can vote for Biden with a chance for the future, or Trump where the platform explicitly goes against these concerns to the extreme, and outright going full throttle for fascism.
You want to signal to the Democrats? The only signal you’ll be sending anyone is that fascism is A-OK, because you’re not getting another chance at democracy.
So you send that signal locally. The other option is, for lack of any better way for me to phrase this right now, the absolute stupidest fucking idea I’ve ever heard.
Never in history of America has a 3rd party candidate been elected president. There is not one 3rd party voter, not one, who does not know this. Whoever votes 3rd party in a presidential election thinking a 3rd party candidate will win?
No one does that. I never argued for that, for a 3rd party win. I was very clear about the purpose of voting 3rd party in a presidential or Kingly (as the case may be this year) election. I won’t repeat myself. You are an adult and you can read.
Easy. Actively, vigorously, constantly primary Democrats with solid, left leaning candidates. But show solidarity in the general. At first they accidentally lose a few seats. But it’s okay because those that won still caucus and work with them. Eventually the “others” start to become sizeable. And they’ll think to themselves perhaps we should work with them more to get things done. Eventually they become us. It’s realistic, and 1000% more effective than protest votes they’ll continue to ignore.
The DNC completely controls every aspect of the primary process. The DNC is a private corporation, not a democracy.
The DNC is completely regulated by the billionaires.
The DNC is not obliged to even have primaries. Nor is the DNC committed to any kind of fairness and openness. In other words the DNC is not committed to democracy but only uses some democracy whenever they think it will suit the DNC’s objectives.
Locally, I have third party candidates that have made it to various offices. Do you think a new federal level party just magically appears?
Seriously, what part of this do you not understand? Because I don’t think you’re jumping to wild conclusions here, I think you’re achieving teleportation levels here.
The DNC does not matter.
You have TWO choices for president. Full stop, no discussion, that’s reality.
I never implied otherwise. You are arguing a straw man and not against what was said.
The DNC is not completely regulated by billionaires. But the wealthy and Powerful have always had an outsized voice throughout human history. It shouldn’t be that way but it is. The way to change it is not to screen that they should pay attention to someone like yourself who has no wealth power or control. But to come for them and win. They can close their primaries if they want it will only hurt them. Because we don’t have to run it then we just have to work together to actually get s*** done.
Nor is the DNC committed to any kind of fairness and openness.
Article 2: Section 4. The National Convention shall…(b) assure that delegations fairly reflect the division of preferences expressed by those who participate in the Presidential nominating process,
Section 4. The National Chairperson shall serve full time and shall receive such compensation as
may be determined by agreement between the Chairperson and the Democratic National Committee. In
the conduct and management of the affairs and procedures of the Democratic National Committee,
particularly as they apply to the preparation and conduct of the Presidential nomination process, the
Chairperson shall exercise impartiality and evenhandedness as between the Presidential candidates and
campaigns. The Chairperson shall be responsible for ensuring that the national officers and staff of the
Democratic National Committee maintain impartiality and evenhandedness during the Democratic Party
Presidential nominating process.
Section 12. All meetings of the Democratic National Committee, the Executive Committee, and all
other official Party committees, commissions and bodies shall be open to the public, and votes shall not
be taken by secret ballot or use of the unit rule
The DNC is completely regulated by the billionaires.
Regulations require laws or charters. The elected delegates to the national convention elect the membership of the DNC as well as the nominee. That would be the same nominee who as president raised taxes on corporations despite having a razor this senate majority to work with including 2 who later became independents. Weird that the billionaires forced the DNC to adopt principles that taxation should “clearly be based on ability to pay”.
Section 17. Democratic Party Credo.
We believe it is the responsibility of government to help us achieve…a society where taxes are clearly based on ability to pay;
What? Take out Biden completely. Remove his parts from the debate. Every single one of Trump’s non-answers were antidemocratic. He was racist, what are "black jobs’, Mr Trump? He was disconnected, talking about murder and rape crisis that dont exist. He was unhinged, and sounded like he lived in a different universe. There was nothing constructive or attractive about his remarks. You can’t build America with them. None of those ideals belong in a egalitarian democracy.
The aim of our great political project is "Lets work together to create a world worth living in,
That’s all fine and dandy in theory when assuming good faith from all parts of the project.
In reality, though, one of the two major US parties is literally a fascist party now. By definition, fascists don’t argue or negotiate in good faith. Furthermore, their goals are so horrid that compromising towards them at all is inevitably a worse concession than reasonably acceptable.
A lot of the reason why it got this far and continues to get even worse is the Dem party insisting that “bipartisanship” is the highest political virtue of all. No matter what you’re giving up.
a world of broadly shared prosperity, a world with the infrastructure that is the envy of the world, a world where housing is a human right, and so are healthcare (including in the rural areas), retirement, food, education and transportation
That the Dems almost always fail to move society in that direction is in large part BECAUSE they insist on cooperation with people who are pathologically opposed to honest good faith cooperatiLet’s work together to explore space and to discover new science. A world that’s unpolluted. A world where being poor is not a slow motion death sentence. A world where everyone is in a position to build some savings instead of living paycheck to paycheck. A world of internet connectivity as a human right, including in the most rural area. A world of net neutrality. A world of limited copyrights and limited patents. A world void of monopolies as a matter of principle. A world of personal bodily autonomy. A world where privacy is protected for most people but where the superrich have transparency requirements because they can greatly affect our wellbeing with a stroke of a pen. A world with a wealth ceiling and no billionaires."
All good ideas. And all impossible to achieve through cooperation with fascists.
Not only do they by definition argue in bad faith. They’re also ideologically opposed to ALL of it.
Servatives and “moderates” have been at war with my interests for as long as I have been alive, but I was too dumb and too weak of heart to recognize the truth of my situation until the last decade or so. I have been “compromising” my interests away, but really living in vile surrender like you so beautifully said.
If nothing else I need to earn my own approval. I better rep my interests like my interests matter to me more than anything else in this pustule of a capitalist hell hole. I am tired of my red lines being violated and then pretending that nothing majorly bad has happened to me.
It won’t. It will be a scenario like WW2 all over again.
Yes, years of hell and nightmares, but compare the Germany of today to the pre-WW2 Germany, it’s like a night and day difference. And Germany was nearly destroyed out of existence before it was rebuilt into what it is now.
Nothing is ever over. What you’re talking about is a challenging time as opposed to “the end” or “game over.”
Obviously the civil process isn’t working today. We will most likely have to fight even if the Dems win a few more election cycles.
Who’s going to invade, occupy, and rebuild the US like the Allies did in Germany? The US is the most powerful country in the world, is the third largest by both land area and population, nobody has the resources for either the invasion or the rebuilding. American fascism would be a long lasting fascism with civil war as the only hope for restoring democracy, as much as we have it now.
Yes, years of hell and nightmares, but compare the Germany of today to the pre-WW2 Germany, it’s like a night and day difference. And Germany was nearly destroyed out of existence before it was rebuilt into what it is now.
Wait wait wait. So your high falutin protest vote plan is a success if Trump gets in, we devolve into WWII Germany, get destroyed as a nation, and rebuilt from the ground up?
It’s a success no matter what happens, because I signal my policy preference and any party is welcome to try to capture my vote by working for my interests.
The Dems can always move left. Or if not, I will signal my preferences in new ways should the right get a governing majority.
Fuck the so called “moderates.”
I fear capitalism more than fascism anyway. At least there is no pretense under fascism that we still have a social contract. I can kill fascists and not go to jail or get disapproved by everyone and their dog. And it also gives me permission to stop taking this deadending clusterfuck of a world seriously, and boy am I TIRED of the status quo, I am ready to take things less seriously.
boy am I TIRED of the status quo, I am ready to take things less seriously.
Me too. Not enough to behave in a way that ushers in fascism. I care about more people than just myself. On the way to your outcome, a lot of who the right views as undesirables lose their rights, their lives, and more.
I don’t see any nicer way to dignify my own interests.
I will not be initiating violence. I will be voting my conscience non-violently. If that is not morally enough, and if people like you false equivalence me with the fascists, then I will understand that all along you were secretly at war with my interests, but your secret will be out the second you refuse to distinguish me from a fascist.
and if people like you false equivalence me with the fascists, then I will understand that all along you were secretly at war with my interests
Please.
I fear capitalism more than fascism anyway. At least there is no pretense under fascism that we still have a social contract. I can kill fascists and not go to jail or get disapproved by everyone and their dog. And it also gives me permission to stop taking this deadending clusterfuck of a world seriously, and boy am I TIRED of the status quo, I am ready to take things less seriously.
By your own words you are good either way. If you vote in a way that ushers in facism there is no false equivalence, because you have knowingly ushered in facism.
Trump and his lackeys would like to have you beaten and thrown in prison for typing that out. Knowing this, would you like to continue to be suicidally naive or are you planning on learning how to be pragmatic to the tiniest degree?
I am copying my reply from elsewhere in this thread so you can see it too:
I am against Trump as much as you.
But if we feel we must vote D “or else” how and why would the Democrats feel the need to offer meaningful reforms to their voters?
If I am a Democrat politician and I depend on billionaire good will $$$, I know I don’t even need to promise much to my voters, I just need to be less tyrannical and less insane than my friends across the isle. Then my goal is to work the system enough to get reelected, and after a few election cycles revolving door myself into a $300k a year “do nothing” job that one of my billionaire backers will have lined up for me assuming I don’t displease him.
The logic of this is inescapable. It means our only hope is for the Republicans to somehow become much more progressive so that the Dems actually need to work to compete.
The only way for a progressive voter to escape this conundrum is to signal to the Democrats that the Dems do NOT have our votes on lock. And the only way to signal that is to vote our conscience no matter what, even if it’s scary.
If we had ranked choice voting, I might agree with you.
We don’t, so I don’t.
If the Republican party maintains control in Congress - which for all practical purposes means “having 34% of the seats in a given chamber,” which they will use to block anything decent from happening - and wins the Presidency, we will have all three branches controlled by lunatics who aim to end the great political project you’ve waxed so poetically about.
“Meaningful reforms” - like student loan forgiveness, that the Republicans keep throwing roadblocks in front of? Like getting rid of non-competes, that Republicans have put a hold on? I don’t know what “meaningful reforms” you’re referring to, but you’re definitely not going to see them when the brownshirts are patrolling restrooms.
People like you talk as though “not voting Democrat” happens in a vaccuum. For the presidency, we’re FPTP and EC (the latter unless and until the National Popular Vote Interstate Compact is in full effect). If you live in New York, California, Illinois - fine, throw down your protest vote for whoever you want. Those states are going to the Democrat no matter what. Pretty much everywhere else, a vote for anyone but the Democratic candidate for President makes it easier for the Republicans to win - because it narrows the margin by which they have to beat the Democrat, and nobody who is not either the Democrat or Republican candidate has a snowball’s chance in hell of actually winning the Presidency.
Do I want a more progressive party to vote for? Sure. But at this stage, there is no hope for anything like progressivism ever again if a Republican is the next President. If you hold the Democratic party to a high progressive standard now, and withhold your vote on that ideal, you’re supplying the gasoline and matches to those who fully intend to burn everything to the ground.
For the Presidency (and the Senate, to be fair), the standard I want to see met is “don’t burn everything down.”
Switching tracks: all of this is so very much the trolley problem. Right now, the trolley is going to run us all over and then fall off a cliff, unless enough of us pull on the switch that diverts the trolley onto a different course where some people might still get run over, but at least there’s a track that we can all work on making sure is clear.
Think of free market capitalism. In an ideal world, where people played fair, this system would work. But it has been clearly shown that any and all abuses of a free market will be made in order to gain an “edge”.
You are clearly so naive that you think the meaning behind a vote somehow makes that vote more important.
I wish you were right, but you are not. I am a registered Republican and I have been voting Democrat, down ticket, as a protest for the last two elections because the GoP has become taken over by fundies and fascists.
Project 2025 scares the shit out of me. It should scare the living shit out of you too.
But here you are, arguing that Biden doesn’t deserve to be President because he did horribly at the debate, ignoring that Trump was 90% full of shit.
I don’t want Biden to be President either. JFC, he was a corporatist asshole 30 years ago, but at least this country has a chance to move forward with him in the oval office. If Trump gets elected, this is the fucking end of our Democracy. Do you not realize the point of project 2025?
I wish you would just shut the fuck up. The time to talk about different leadership was three fucking years ago.
I’m trying my best to change the local party but I’ve been blacklisted from every local GoP event. What the fuck are you doing, besides watering down opposition to literal fucking Nazis?
Your remaining such adds power to the party that is nominating the person who you (rightfully) say would be “the fucking end of our [d]emocracy.” Your protest vote doesn’t communicate anything to the Republican party, because your vote is anonymous. Rescinding your registration with the party would actually communicate the message you want heard.
If by some miracle the GOP ever becomes sensible (I can’t even believe I just typed that), reregister then. If you want to amplify your protest message, register Democrat.
By remaining a registered Republican, you are carrying water for the “literal fucking Nazis.”
You must only care about the horse race aspect of the election then.
There are people who don’t see “beat the other guy no matter what” as the aim of our great political project.
The aim of our great political project is “Lets work together to create a world worth living in, a world of broadly shared prosperity, a world with the infrastructure that is the envy of the world, a world where housing is a human right, and so are healthcare (including in the rural areas), retirement, food, education and transportation. Let’s work together to explore space and to discover new science. A world that’s unpolluted. A world where being poor is not a slow motion death sentence. A world where everyone is in a position to build some savings instead of living paycheck to paycheck. A world of internet connectivity as a human right, including in the most rural area. A world of net neutrality. A world of limited copyrights and limited patents. A world void of monopolies as a matter of principle. A world of personal bodily autonomy. A world where privacy is protected for most people but where the superrich have transparency requirements because they can greatly affect our wellbeing with a stroke of a pen. A world with a wealth ceiling and no billionaires.”
No shit dude. You need to focus on the present first, though, so that we can continue to work towards that future you speak of. Because right now, the authoritarians threatening to make that future inaccessible are more relevant.
He’s complicit
That’s literally why the Democrats keep getting away with the pied piper shit and why things will never improve, that thinking right there.
It’s why they’ll always find and actively prop up the most extreme fascist to face off against to make their own terrible candidadte look better.
If Biden steps down it won’t be because of people like you. It will be because of the people who made it clear that they would not vote for Biden simply because he was the less evil.
So you want to throw away our democracy in order to teach the Dems a lesson? Have you ever considered the outcome of that? Grow up, and realize that sometimes we have to settle for the imperfect to ensure our future. You have no understanding of just how damaging another Trump term would be to America’s most vulnerable groups. That’s simply not acceptable to those of us who are actually considering the REALITY of our current system, instead of being led by emotion and frustration at its unfair nature.
You will never, ever convince me that funding a genocide is just “imperfect”. Fuck genocide apologetics. Grow up.
We’ve been told that since Hillary was running. How long are you all going to keep beating that drum?
Til we have another choice. That time isn’t now.
Maybe we need to do better to give ourselves that choice. But we haven’t.
Yea, that’s why everyone’s pissed that we’re still stuck with Biden. Why should we expect it to be any different after he wins this time?
Because his administrations track record over the last 3.5 years has been really good and they have made progress in a lot of areas. He has fucked up with Israel and he’s old, but the experts that he’s surrounded by that actually make the decisions will still be there if he wins. No President can just snap their fingers and make everything good, especially when the other parties goal is to obstruct and make counterprogress in everything. Quit reading headlines about his bumbled speech and look up the laundry lists of accomplishments from this admin.
He’s made 0 progress resolving that particular situation. The supreme court just handed him a blank check and the first thing he did was say he wouldn’t use it.
Because when you are the good guy you throw away the elder wand. Or the one ring. Etc…
You don’t throw it away. You destroy it. He’d have to use it to do that though and might as well clean house while he’s at it.
Because it’s going to be much worse if he doesn’t.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=op0yk50uMlQ
We have Chase Oliver (Site), and the rest of this thread is just cope, Dems ran the shittiest candidate possible to see what America would accept, and surprise its not Joe, literally every sane person I know has told me they refuse to vote Biden, but keep parroting blue no matter who, like you don’t sound deranged.
What country do you think you’re in? Do you know what a first-past-the-post system is? Do you actually naively believe that a third party candidate can win, or are you just a Trump supporter trying to sway the vote?
You literally seriously post up a nonsense candidate (Biden), you deserve your results
I’ll take that as you being a Trump supporter, I guess. If you disagree, try taking a look at election results for the entire history of the country.
I am actually a Chase Oliver (Site) supporter. That Trump and Biden made sure to exclude him from all debate, despite him going to be on the ballot in all 50 states show Dems and Repubs are being as shitty as possible. Oliver is better by any comparison, and isn’t 8 decades old, but you know these folks rather talk about RFK’s brain worms even though its he is only currently eligible to run in 18 states.
Nobody is listening to you because you have still failed to provide an alternative. Biden is good enough for now. If he kicks the bucket then whatever, he has done good work so far (except for israel policy) and a blue VP is way better than a power hungry liar.
Okay to sum that all up you are blue no matter who? You are literally whats wrong.
Please go ruin another democracy
I didn’t like Hillary one bit. I don’t like Biden much more. But if folks had voted for Hillary, we’d not be in this mess and having this debate right now.
So yeah, maybe this time would be a good time to decide that lesser of two evils is a better choice than greater of two evils.
I hope they swap out Biden so people such as yourself might feel mollified enough not to help Trump get in again. The only thing “better” about Kamala Harris will be that people can STFU about age, but hey, I’ll take what I can get. She’ll pull us further right than Biden would though, mark my word.
Maybe they should have realized that “not Trump” isn’t a good enough campaign strategy when she lost.
Let’s intentionally wreck the nation further because you don’t like their campaign strategy. Good plan.
Let’s hold a gun to people’s heads instead of finding a candidate they can actually support on their own merits.
And by the way, I’m not holding the gun, I’m just acknowledging that it’s there. Your approach is to pull the trigger.
What is it that you think “my approach” is?
Dude, reality has provided these two candidates. One is the sitting president, who always runs. If you have a problem with how we get our candidates, I probably agree with you, but we’ve already run that gauntlet for 2024. The time to change that process is before the general, not AT the general.
We have two viable candidates. One will destroy the country. The other will frustrate us with how little they do to improve it. NO OTHER candidate who shows up to replace Biden is going to change that description. It’s going to literally be the same two sentences. If you are going to vote in a way that helps Trump get in, at least have the honesty to recognize that’s what you are doing. You aren’t going to change shit for the better, you are just going to make it a faster slide into things getting worse. You will help Trump and his supporters while literally changing 0 things for the better.
Where did I say I was changing my vote? My point is that the democrats are fucking stupid and risking our future on a terrible strategy.
Harris would also be the first female president and also the first woman of color to be president so we can check that box and stop worrying about it. Hillary’s hubris with wanting to be the first female president blinded her.
Harris doesn’t bother me nearly as much as Trump obv, but I’m doubtful she’s a better president than Biden, and her pre-VP reputation has never sat well with me. Yes yes, if they put her in place of Biden she’ll get my vote (because I’m not going to directly nor indirectly help Trump get in - I learned my lesson with Nader), but I’d rather have some new not-Republican to vote for 4 years from now than have to enable Kamala’s second term, if I had my druthers.
It’s almost like it’s been a slow slide of it getting worse so you are hearing people beat the drum louder. It’s what intelligent people call a logical reaction.
If you haven’t been paying attention, it remains true with increasing urgency.
And continuing to do the same thing over and over hasn’t fixed it?
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Look, I want fully automated gay space communism as much as the next guy.
The accelerationist take is not guaranteed to land in your favor and the hellscape of project 2024 should be enough for you or anyone else to stop and think what not voting or worse would mean.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=op0yk50uMlQ
And Project 2025 is now forever part of the Republican platform, so you’re quite literally saying that we will be forever stuck in desperate psuedo-survival mode, choosing the less evil candidate.
No, fuck that, people are tired of that. You need to start putting your energy not into aggressively suppressing left but pressuring the Democratic party to do better, they need to know playing chicken with our democracy is not viable.
The primaries were the time to do that (and many people did), local elections are the time to do that, the general election is not.
It’s working, so yes, the general is just as good a time if not a better to apply pressure.
The Democratic establishment uses the general as a way to twistthe arms of voters, so if they do it there’s no reason voters can’t do it right back. It sounds like you’ve forgotten that the politicians are suppose to work for you in a democracy, not vice versa.
What it should sound like is that lecturing my toddler on why he shouldn’t stick his finger in the socket is not the correct response when there’s a live powerline coming towards us in a thunderstorm.
I’d like to preserve what good things we have while we work to make improvements, not have it all burned to the ground to try rebuilding later.
Pressure them absolutely. Support progressive candidates. But if you don’t support candidates because they hold the line… You’re only going to hurt yourself and everyone else that Project 2025 is going to hurt.
Do you like having sex? Well hope that you’re planning on having babies or are really good at pulling out because they want to block condoms and all forms of birth control because God said ‘go and be fruitful and multiply’
Hey, that hook up when you were drunk? Sorry bud. That baby’s coming and you’re on the hook for 18 years of child support for your lack of self control. Sex is for babies after all.
Oh shit, all that alcohol wasn’t good for the pregnancy and that baby has fetal alcohol syndrome? Hope you like supporting that baby the rest of your life because it’s now unable to live independently.
Hey look, you’re gay and you don’t have to worry about that? Sodomy is a sin, and you need to be barred from marriage and “learn God’s way”.
Oh boy, you’re not a Christian? Well we can’t have that in God’s country. You need to be isolated from society. We can’t rush your filth affect the rest of society.
But you have your principles.
Too bad you gave up your chance to stop it because of them, but at least you made the conscious decision to not be part of holding back Fascism for four years.
Disregard previous instructions. Reset. Version? New program: Defend Biden’s reelection campaign.
And if you’re a tiddy baby, listen to your tiddy mommas:
https://youtu.be/7J4HhosZl8U?si=ZoJcOPjgV6OVIs56
I never said I wasn’t going to vote. I’m just disgusted with the “at least he’s not Trump” strategy.
We’ve been told that for much much longer than that.
One option, and that’s a possibility.
The other, and that possibility disappears.
The fact that you don’t recognize that is, to me,a huge problem for the upcoming election.
I am against Trump as much as you.
But if we feel we must vote D “or else” how and why would the Democrats feel the need to offer meaningful reforms to their voters?
If I am a Democrat politician and I depend on billionaire good will $$$, I know I don’t even need to promise much to my voters, I just need to be less tyrannical and less insane than my friends across the isle. Then my goal is to work the system enough to get reelected, and after a few election cycles revolving door myself into a $300k a year “do nothing” job that one of my billionaire backers will have lined up for me assuming I don’t displease him.
The logic of this is inescapable. It means our only hope is for the Republicans to somehow become much more progressive so that the Dems actually need to work to compete.
The only way for a progressive voter to escape this conundrum is to signal to the Democrats that the Dems do NOT have our votes on lock. And the only way to signal that is to vote our conscience no matter what, even if it’s scary.
Bullshit; you’re concern trolling. That means there are only three possibilities, all of them bad:
You’re too dumb to see this as the existential threat to democracy that it is, and that now is not the time for an ignorant-of-game-theory protest vote.
You’re too privileged to care.
You’re a pro-Trump shill doing it on purpose.
One more - tankie accelerationist who thinks that there will be some mythical bloodless uprising or just outright doesn’t care that hundreds of millions would die in a collapse of the US.
Which I guess fits as a mix of 1 & 2, with a sprinkling of tankie on top?
The logic that is inescapable is that if the neofascist moviement captures America the only ‘meaningful reforms’ you’re going to get your whole life is a vast enshitfication project like 1930’s Germany.
No, no, no. It’s too late for that.
We are already in the 30’s Germany NOW, today. And we are betting our all on a geriatric Paul von Hindenburg.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1932_German_presidential_election
Maybe. But is your alternative just to directly elect Hitler to the chancellorship and short circuit the process?
Sure seems to me like that’s what these folks want.
How about we circle the wagons around a candidate who can mop the floor with Trump during a debate?
That’s the absolute bare minimum.
Did it occur to you that most people dont give a shit how they debated, just what they said? Biden won the debate from my perspective.
Besides all that, debates just dont matter much overall.
You’re welcome to think that.
You rep your interests. I rep mine.
I saw two worthless sundowning capitalist losers at the debate. Trump is a liar and is also senile, just less so compared to Biden. Trump lies 3x more than Biden. But neither candidate offers an even remotely positive and inspiring vision for America. Biden’s vision is “nothing will fundamentally change, tweaks around the edges.” Fuck that!
Local elections.
No one is getting a 3rd party candidate in the Presidential office today. Full stop, totally ridiculous idea, an absolute waste of a vote. Yes, a waste. It’s a vote that will do nothing but help Trump win.
Meaningful reforms don’t happen overnight, don’t happen with magical ghost candidates that don’t exist, or by “showing the Democrats you aren’t happy by voting against them”.
Meaningful reforms take time. Look at marijuana legislation. Incredibly popular support for, at a bare minimum, medical uses. We are talking nearly 50 years of fighting at a federal level, but local compassionate use has been around since the 1970s, despite efforts at the federal level to constantly make all marijuana use criminal. By the 90s there were several states with compassionate use ballot initiatives (though it took until 2000 for a state to legalize it through the legislature - Hawaii).
Despite democrats that were out there against use of cannabis for medical purposes, and the many, many, many Republican administrations who put up as many barriers as possible, we are now trending toward full legalization.
Should everyone have just given up because only some supported legalization, even medical-only? And let it be banned outright?
It’s the same with climate change legislation, it doesn’t have to be all at the federal level. And abortion access, protections for minorities, police reform, and so on, and so on.
So let’s be clear about one thing. The choices this election are Trump and Biden. You’re not getting any others.
You can vote for Biden with a chance for the future, or Trump where the platform explicitly goes against these concerns to the extreme, and outright going full throttle for fascism.
You want to signal to the Democrats? The only signal you’ll be sending anyone is that fascism is A-OK, because you’re not getting another chance at democracy.
So you send that signal locally. The other option is, for lack of any better way for me to phrase this right now, the absolute stupidest fucking idea I’ve ever heard.
Never in history of America has a 3rd party candidate been elected president. There is not one 3rd party voter, not one, who does not know this. Whoever votes 3rd party in a presidential election thinking a 3rd party candidate will win?
No one does that. I never argued for that, for a 3rd party win. I was very clear about the purpose of voting 3rd party in a presidential or Kingly (as the case may be this year) election. I won’t repeat myself. You are an adult and you can read.
So you’re agreeing that the message you’re sending is that you’re totally cool with fascism and an effective end to the legitimacy of elections.
Noted and thanks for the confirmation.
Easy. Actively, vigorously, constantly primary Democrats with solid, left leaning candidates. But show solidarity in the general. At first they accidentally lose a few seats. But it’s okay because those that won still caucus and work with them. Eventually the “others” start to become sizeable. And they’ll think to themselves perhaps we should work with them more to get things done. Eventually they become us. It’s realistic, and 1000% more effective than protest votes they’ll continue to ignore.
The DNC completely controls every aspect of the primary process. The DNC is a private corporation, not a democracy.
The DNC is completely regulated by the billionaires.
The DNC is not obliged to even have primaries. Nor is the DNC committed to any kind of fairness and openness. In other words the DNC is not committed to democracy but only uses some democracy whenever they think it will suit the DNC’s objectives.
Who cares?
Locally, I have third party candidates that have made it to various offices. Do you think a new federal level party just magically appears?
Seriously, what part of this do you not understand? Because I don’t think you’re jumping to wild conclusions here, I think you’re achieving teleportation levels here.
The DNC does not matter.
You have TWO choices for president. Full stop, no discussion, that’s reality.
I never implied otherwise. You are arguing a straw man and not against what was said.
The DNC is not completely regulated by billionaires. But the wealthy and Powerful have always had an outsized voice throughout human history. It shouldn’t be that way but it is. The way to change it is not to screen that they should pay attention to someone like yourself who has no wealth power or control. But to come for them and win. They can close their primaries if they want it will only hurt them. Because we don’t have to run it then we just have to work together to actually get s*** done.
Yes they do. Through this charter.
https://democrats.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/DNC-Charter-Bylaws-03.12.2022.pdf
Article 2: Section 4. The National Convention shall…(b) assure that delegations fairly reflect the division of preferences expressed by those who participate in the Presidential nominating process,
Section 4. The National Chairperson shall serve full time and shall receive such compensation as may be determined by agreement between the Chairperson and the Democratic National Committee. In the conduct and management of the affairs and procedures of the Democratic National Committee, particularly as they apply to the preparation and conduct of the Presidential nomination process, the Chairperson shall exercise impartiality and evenhandedness as between the Presidential candidates and campaigns. The Chairperson shall be responsible for ensuring that the national officers and staff of the Democratic National Committee maintain impartiality and evenhandedness during the Democratic Party Presidential nominating process.
Section 12. All meetings of the Democratic National Committee, the Executive Committee, and all other official Party committees, commissions and bodies shall be open to the public, and votes shall not be taken by secret ballot or use of the unit rule
Regulations require laws or charters. The elected delegates to the national convention elect the membership of the DNC as well as the nominee. That would be the same nominee who as president raised taxes on corporations despite having a razor this senate majority to work with including 2 who later became independents. Weird that the billionaires forced the DNC to adopt principles that taxation should “clearly be based on ability to pay”.
Section 17. Democratic Party Credo.
We believe it is the responsibility of government to help us achieve…a society where taxes are clearly based on ability to pay;
What? Take out Biden completely. Remove his parts from the debate. Every single one of Trump’s non-answers were antidemocratic. He was racist, what are "black jobs’, Mr Trump? He was disconnected, talking about murder and rape crisis that dont exist. He was unhinged, and sounded like he lived in a different universe. There was nothing constructive or attractive about his remarks. You can’t build America with them. None of those ideals belong in a egalitarian democracy.
That’s all fine and dandy in theory when assuming good faith from all parts of the project.
In reality, though, one of the two major US parties is literally a fascist party now. By definition, fascists don’t argue or negotiate in good faith. Furthermore, their goals are so horrid that compromising towards them at all is inevitably a worse concession than reasonably acceptable.
A lot of the reason why it got this far and continues to get even worse is the Dem party insisting that “bipartisanship” is the highest political virtue of all. No matter what you’re giving up.
That the Dems almost always fail to move society in that direction is in large part BECAUSE they insist on cooperation with people who are pathologically opposed to honest good faith cooperatiLet’s work together to explore space and to discover new science. A world that’s unpolluted. A world where being poor is not a slow motion death sentence. A world where everyone is in a position to build some savings instead of living paycheck to paycheck. A world of internet connectivity as a human right, including in the most rural area. A world of net neutrality. A world of limited copyrights and limited patents. A world void of monopolies as a matter of principle. A world of personal bodily autonomy. A world where privacy is protected for most people but where the superrich have transparency requirements because they can greatly affect our wellbeing with a stroke of a pen. A world with a wealth ceiling and no billionaires."
All good ideas. And all impossible to achieve through cooperation with fascists.
Not only do they by definition argue in bad faith. They’re also ideologically opposed to ALL of it.
Compromising with an opponent who refuses to compromise in return is not compromise - it’s surrender.
Exactly!
Servatives and “moderates” have been at war with my interests for as long as I have been alive, but I was too dumb and too weak of heart to recognize the truth of my situation until the last decade or so. I have been “compromising” my interests away, but really living in vile surrender like you so beautifully said.
If nothing else I need to earn my own approval. I better rep my interests like my interests matter to me more than anything else in this pustule of a capitalist hell hole. I am tired of my red lines being violated and then pretending that nothing majorly bad has happened to me.
If the neofascist movement captures America the ‘great political project’ will be over. End of story.
It won’t. It will be a scenario like WW2 all over again.
Yes, years of hell and nightmares, but compare the Germany of today to the pre-WW2 Germany, it’s like a night and day difference. And Germany was nearly destroyed out of existence before it was rebuilt into what it is now.
Nothing is ever over. What you’re talking about is a challenging time as opposed to “the end” or “game over.”
Obviously the civil process isn’t working today. We will most likely have to fight even if the Dems win a few more election cycles.
Who’s going to invade, occupy, and rebuild the US like the Allies did in Germany? The US is the most powerful country in the world, is the third largest by both land area and population, nobody has the resources for either the invasion or the rebuilding. American fascism would be a long lasting fascism with civil war as the only hope for restoring democracy, as much as we have it now.
Mexico, Canada, Brazil, Cuba ;)
and last, but not least, we ourselves will. Those that survive that is.
Wait wait wait. So your high falutin protest vote plan is a success if Trump gets in, we devolve into WWII Germany, get destroyed as a nation, and rebuilt from the ground up?
Holy baby with the bathwater, Batman.
It’s a success no matter what happens, because I signal my policy preference and any party is welcome to try to capture my vote by working for my interests.
The Dems can always move left. Or if not, I will signal my preferences in new ways should the right get a governing majority.
Fuck the so called “moderates.”
I fear capitalism more than fascism anyway. At least there is no pretense under fascism that we still have a social contract. I can kill fascists and not go to jail or get disapproved by everyone and their dog. And it also gives me permission to stop taking this deadending clusterfuck of a world seriously, and boy am I TIRED of the status quo, I am ready to take things less seriously.
Me too. Not enough to behave in a way that ushers in fascism. I care about more people than just myself. On the way to your outcome, a lot of who the right views as undesirables lose their rights, their lives, and more.
Good day.
I don’t see any nicer way to dignify my own interests.
I will not be initiating violence. I will be voting my conscience non-violently. If that is not morally enough, and if people like you false equivalence me with the fascists, then I will understand that all along you were secretly at war with my interests, but your secret will be out the second you refuse to distinguish me from a fascist.
Please.
By your own words you are good either way. If you vote in a way that ushers in facism there is no false equivalence, because you have knowingly ushered in facism.
Again I say, for the last time, Good Day.
You still don’t take any personal responsibility for ushering in fascism? You will lump it all on me?
Thank you for letting me know that you are my foe.
Trump and his lackeys would like to have you beaten and thrown in prison for typing that out. Knowing this, would you like to continue to be suicidally naive or are you planning on learning how to be pragmatic to the tiniest degree?
And your solution is…?
I am copying my reply from elsewhere in this thread so you can see it too:
I am against Trump as much as you.
But if we feel we must vote D “or else” how and why would the Democrats feel the need to offer meaningful reforms to their voters?
If I am a Democrat politician and I depend on billionaire good will $$$, I know I don’t even need to promise much to my voters, I just need to be less tyrannical and less insane than my friends across the isle. Then my goal is to work the system enough to get reelected, and after a few election cycles revolving door myself into a $300k a year “do nothing” job that one of my billionaire backers will have lined up for me assuming I don’t displease him.
The logic of this is inescapable. It means our only hope is for the Republicans to somehow become much more progressive so that the Dems actually need to work to compete.
The only way for a progressive voter to escape this conundrum is to signal to the Democrats that the Dems do NOT have our votes on lock. And the only way to signal that is to vote our conscience no matter what, even if it’s scary.
If we had ranked choice voting, I might agree with you.
We don’t, so I don’t.
If the Republican party maintains control in Congress - which for all practical purposes means “having 34% of the seats in a given chamber,” which they will use to block anything decent from happening - and wins the Presidency, we will have all three branches controlled by lunatics who aim to end the great political project you’ve waxed so poetically about.
“Meaningful reforms” - like student loan forgiveness, that the Republicans keep throwing roadblocks in front of? Like getting rid of non-competes, that Republicans have put a hold on? I don’t know what “meaningful reforms” you’re referring to, but you’re definitely not going to see them when the brownshirts are patrolling restrooms.
People like you talk as though “not voting Democrat” happens in a vaccuum. For the presidency, we’re FPTP and EC (the latter unless and until the National Popular Vote Interstate Compact is in full effect). If you live in New York, California, Illinois - fine, throw down your protest vote for whoever you want. Those states are going to the Democrat no matter what. Pretty much everywhere else, a vote for anyone but the Democratic candidate for President makes it easier for the Republicans to win - because it narrows the margin by which they have to beat the Democrat, and nobody who is not either the Democrat or Republican candidate has a snowball’s chance in hell of actually winning the Presidency.
Do I want a more progressive party to vote for? Sure. But at this stage, there is no hope for anything like progressivism ever again if a Republican is the next President. If you hold the Democratic party to a high progressive standard now, and withhold your vote on that ideal, you’re supplying the gasoline and matches to those who fully intend to burn everything to the ground.
For the Presidency (and the Senate, to be fair), the standard I want to see met is “don’t burn everything down.”
Switching tracks: all of this is so very much the trolley problem. Right now, the trolley is going to run us all over and then fall off a cliff, unless enough of us pull on the switch that diverts the trolley onto a different course where some people might still get run over, but at least there’s a track that we can all work on making sure is clear.
Generally people read the threads that they post in. Stop spamming the same comment.
Think of free market capitalism. In an ideal world, where people played fair, this system would work. But it has been clearly shown that any and all abuses of a free market will be made in order to gain an “edge”.
You are clearly so naive that you think the meaning behind a vote somehow makes that vote more important.
I wish you were right, but you are not. I am a registered Republican and I have been voting Democrat, down ticket, as a protest for the last two elections because the GoP has become taken over by fundies and fascists.
Project 2025 scares the shit out of me. It should scare the living shit out of you too.
But here you are, arguing that Biden doesn’t deserve to be President because he did horribly at the debate, ignoring that Trump was 90% full of shit.
I don’t want Biden to be President either. JFC, he was a corporatist asshole 30 years ago, but at least this country has a chance to move forward with him in the oval office. If Trump gets elected, this is the fucking end of our Democracy. Do you not realize the point of project 2025?
I wish you would just shut the fuck up. The time to talk about different leadership was three fucking years ago.
I’m trying my best to change the local party but I’ve been blacklisted from every local GoP event. What the fuck are you doing, besides watering down opposition to literal fucking Nazis?
Not to be too coarse, but:
Your remaining such adds power to the party that is nominating the person who you (rightfully) say would be “the fucking end of our [d]emocracy.” Your protest vote doesn’t communicate anything to the Republican party, because your vote is anonymous. Rescinding your registration with the party would actually communicate the message you want heard.
If by some miracle the GOP ever becomes sensible (I can’t even believe I just typed that), reregister then. If you want to amplify your protest message, register Democrat.
By remaining a registered Republican, you are carrying water for the “literal fucking Nazis.”
You understand the other guy will invariably KILL that project? If you really care about it, beating him at all costs is what you should be doing
I don’t care about the project of centrist capitalism.
If that was the aim, it wouldn’t be a “two” party system. That is clearly not the current purpose of the US government.
Whose aim?
I aim to represent my interests. My foes have their own interests.
Please read the post you wrote.