so this is where we’re at? fuck it? let them believe what they want? yeah, we’re fucked.
I can totally understand not really wanting to engage with these stupid people but to suggest that it doesn’t matter that he believes that is disingenuous.
If he’s stupid enough to think the Earth is flat then he is stupid enough to do other things in his actual job wrong or in a dangerous manner.
It doesn’t matter in the context of effort/reward. He’s not gonna listen, you lose cohesiveness, and there’s just added stress overall.
And the job isn’t exactly rocket science you can literally have downes and still stock shelves. Flat earthers are more about desperately wanting to believe in something that places you in an exclusive ingroup, not about legitimately proving something.
it’s anti science, it’s dangerous, and i won’t condone anyone giving them a pass
Yeah, this is one of those stupidity litmus tests. Believing that the Earth is flat vs. round does appear at face value to be consequential, as the average person never actually has to care about the curvature of the earth. However, it’s not really about the curvature of the earth, it’s about critical thinking, listening to evidence, and having a sane and rational worldview.
There is physical evidence that the earth is round, and you can even test it yourself. Flat earthers will run these tests themselves (watch “Behind the Curve”) and will still convince themselves that the tests are flawed and the Earth is flat.
And being a flat-earther isn’t just a simple difference in belief about the natural world. It comes with the belief that most of society is brainwashed into believing in a round earth, that the governments of the world are all colluding to keep the truth a secret, and that there exists some great truth about the “Firmament” (the dome above the flat earth) that those in power benefit from denying society.
So it’s not just some simple difference in belief. Flat earthers think you’re a stupid brainwashed rube controlled by a global cartel of godless governments colluding to blind the world to the existence of God by denying the existence of the Firmament and and spreading the Satanic evil of scientific knowledge that suggests that all things in the solar system trend spherical and orbit one another.
Flat earthers hold roughly the same beliefs that the people who imprisoned Galileo, and they would do it again if given the chance because they are overwhelmingly MAGA-types, at least in the USA, where lunatic conspiratorial beliefs are quite common.
Anyone stupid enough to believe the earth is flat will kill you by accident.
You believe so many things that are obviously not true. We all do. Have some compassion.
Nope, I’ve tolerated the stupidity of these kinds of idiots long enough. I’m done with wasting compassion on the hopeless.
Exactly. Tolerating the stupid is currently having us regress in society and basic human rights.
Do unto others, friend. They tolerate your BS, why don’t you do the same?
Weak.
sorry, I wouldn’t trust anyone with those beliefs in any position of responsibility.
Same with religious people. They’ve already proven they lack in critical thinking skills/
I’m sure there have been plenty of times you have comfortably trusted a religious person with responsibility because most people are religious.
Most people are not religious - https://news.gallup.com/poll/511133/identify-religious-spiritual.aspx#:~:text=WASHINGTON%2C D.C. -- Nearly half,say they are neither religious
“nearly half” is not “most”.
That’s if you’re including spiritual as non-religious.
Only 18% of people in that poll were described as neither (Atheist).
I believe he was getting at religion as the problem, not spirituality. If you look at the BITE model, which is used to determine if a group displays cult like behavior, both flat earthers and many religions fall into the category of cults. Spirituality does not, as it is not organized.
Spirituality does not, as it is not organized.
As someone who grew up in a part spiritual household I heavily disagree. Flat earthers and traditional spiritualists like Neo-Pagans, Wiccans, etc, have the exact same amount of organization, if flat earthers are a cult, then so are most spiritualist groups.
Most flat earthers aren’t in some organized cult, they get their misinformation from Facebook posts and YouTube videos, with there being a couple of small actually organized groups. The exact same can be said about spiritualists, just generally they used to get their spiritual beliefs from books instead of the internet (though that’s changed now for spiritualists too).
If anything, I’d bet there’s more people in actually organized spiritualist groups than there are in actually organized flat earther groups.
You’re going to nit pick spiritual vs religious? If we’re being pedantic, you’re citing us population, the world is much different. Also even if we accept it’s only about half, my point still stands.
I think spiritual vs religious can be an important difference. Generally speaking it’s organized religions that are causing major harm not the individuals who believe their is something beyond our physical reality.
But isn’t the argument about critical thinking skills? I’m sure it’s nice to believe in Gaia but there is demonstratively no evidence for it.
The question of harm done is independent to that of gullibility.
Isn’t manipulating and preying on the gullible the main way that religion causes harm?
Gulliblity isn’t binary. I’d argue that those buying into organized religion are more gullible than people who identify as “spiritual.” If I asked you to rank people from least to most gullible based only on their religion, would you not rank a person that considers themselves spiritual but not drawn to a particular church higher than a member of a pentecostal church that regularly attends faith healing events?
Finally, this part is anecdotal but, the majority of people I know that consider themselves spiritual but not religious are people that attended one or more churches for a while but questioned or took issues with parts of those churches teachings. They may believe that there is some form sky daddy watching over us but, by they have displayed a degree of critical thinking. I can’t present concrete proof that sky daddy isn’t real so, as long as they aren’t using that belief to cause harm, I see no reason to immediately distrust someone simply for considering themselves spiritual.
i see you still need to assert intellectual superiority :)
Yes they do, in the same way I wouldn’t hire someone who thinks the Internet is run by Santa’s elves. There’s a bar.
I believe in truth and that facts do matter. I also teach young people. Being a wage earner was not a bad thing, but I yearn for the freedom to live an easier life, eventually. I want that for everyone. False beliefs are traps that hold people back from being their best selves. Carry flat-earth beliefs as a core foundation and look at what differences it would make. Geostationary satellites, and all the tech jobs that go with servicing that sector, just disappeared. Ditto solar. Travel to distant places, and time zones, becomes an insolvable problem. Your co-worker is holding his life back by believing in medieval superstitions.
It is a kindness to challenge people to find what is true.
I agree with all this but want to gripe about the misconception that flat Earth is medieval.
People have known Earth is round since at least 350 BC when Aristotle wrote On the Heavens. And he didn’t come up with it there, he was explaining how others knew it.
In medieval times they had not lost this knowledge and it was still widely understood that Earth is round. Flat Earth has been a fringe lunacy for thousands of years. In the 1800s it became popular for religious reasons and most flat Earthers today are actually creationists trying to dress up their beliefs as science.
Given that stupid and uninformed (or misinformed) people get a vote on topics that affect me, no. I’m not gonna let slide that people believe outright provably wrong bullshit. It’s still a problem.
Fortunately those people got to see Biden-the-corpse for themselves in the last debate. I thought it was hopeless too, but the tide is turning. Hopefully we can blast through the deep-state/election fraud wall in November.
You want to put Trump back in…? Did you forget how he ran things 2016-2020, plus Jan 6th, a literal (but horribly executed) coup attempt?
Given the rulings from the recent rulings from the Supreme Court, Trump will be emboldened to do whatever he wants “with immunity”. I just can’t wrap my head around how anyone thinks this is a good idea.
You still believe the Jan 6 hoax?
It’s clearly not a hoax.
Political scientists get the same one vote as some Arkansas inbred
There’s a lot more inbreds than scientists.
[lemmy disliked that]
I miss when people were ashamed of being stupid, now they feel proud about it.
The thing is, in their eyes they aren’t stupid.
They think they have this secret piece of information, and everyone else is stupid for not knowing or understanding it.
But it is kind of narcissistic to think you found this extra information, which the people who have spend their entire lives researching the topic somehow have missed.
Like, I know people who claim the sea levels aren’t going to rise because ice melting doesn’t increase the water level. And claim all the scientists are wrong about climate change. When in reality the sea levels will rise because warm water expands.
It’s often that they think those people know but aren’t telling the truth. Then more and more people start agreeing. So they’re not the one person who figured it out, it’s a revolution!
When in reality the sea levels will rise because warm water expands.
Just FYI, sea levels are going to rise primarily because much of the melting ice is not floating in the water, but land based. Thermal expansion is definitely part of it, but secondary.
Nah, the amount of snow and ice on land like in Antarctica is extremely small to the amount of water in the sea, especially since it needs to expand outward and cover even more land.
With thermal expansion even only being a clouple of % is enough to rise everywhere multiple meters. Which is nothing compared to the +10km of dept at the Mariana Trench.
Of course, all of it adds together in the end. It will be bad for everyone no matter where it comes from.
https://sealevel.nasa.gov/faq/12/what-causes-sea-level-rise/
Might change when all of the ice melts, but to this point it contributes twice as much per year, per NASA. If you have some other source I would be interested in reading it.
Pointing out stupidity online is a crazy experience. Most of the time you get answers like “who cares?”, " you must be fun at parties.", “this isn’t a (relevant topic) test, I’ll make all the errors I want” etc. Not once in my life have I felt or thought like that, and I just can’t imagine how those proples minds work.
“Who cares?” Anyone who isn’t a moron.
proples
?
“Who cares?” - People that upvoted them but downvoted you for doing what they talked about.
These people’s
Man, a lot of comments on here are giving me reddit debate lord vibes. People talking about “the truth matters”, but the way a lot of them are saying, it sounds like they just want to ego boost and dunk on/bully someone that they perceive as inferior; which I suppose could also be called “asserting intellectual superiority”.
Chances are that any argument you use on them is something they’ve already heard, and the more you push and demean them the more defensive they will probably get, and the harder it will be to convince them. And even if you did manage to pressure and shame them into believing the earth is round, that won’t suddenly make them good critical thinkers.
The best way to convince these people of reality is to just say “You really believe that?” and “That sounds complicated” when they talk about it. Or you can laugh in a friendly way and say “Who told you that? They’re trying to trick you.”
These people respond to emotions, not facts. Just tell them someone is tricking them. They want to have friends and special knowledge.
See here’s the thing, if you believe silly stuff and keep it to yourself, that’s fine. People who believe in silly stuff never keep it to themselves though.
If you put information out there, don’t be mad when people put counter information back at you. I know far too many people who believe in alt medicine and talk freely about it, that it’s getting harder and harder to bite my tongue. I don’t care if you think Acupuncture works for you. The fruit diet worked for Steve Jobs until it didn’t.
Acupuncture is a bit of a different animal though, there’s been some research coming out that it triggers a different layer (connective tissue iirc) in ways that we don’t really understand but seem to promote beneficial responses through triggering various receptors and nerve responses. I would still group it closer to alt med but it’s one of the ones I think might have a grain of usefulness underlying a bunch of less helpful ritualism.
One of the claims with acupuncture is that everyone has Meridian Lines and master practitioners find and put needles in them to manipulate the body or something. Those lines are suppose to be constant for the same person. It’s been years, but someone decided to schedule several acupuncture appointments with several different masters and each master put needles in different points.
If any part of acupuncture turns out to have some real deep tissue therapy application, how it’s practiced would end up changing so much, it wouldn’t even be called acupuncture anymore. Shit like reusing needles or Punctured Lungs are not something that has any excuses to happen in real medicine.
Anyway, this group also likes to claim that cupping, reflexology, chiropractic, or any other “eastern medicine” is being kept down by racists in the American Medical Association.
Yeah and those would be a lot of the less helpful ritualism described.
It may get a new name when the actual medical use is determined and demonstrated but for now it’s still acupuncture.
There’s a lot of terrible things that shouldn’t happen in real medicine (like pretending different races have different pain tolerances, or over prescription of medicines like opioids or even antibiotics) but we don’t blame the technique or medicine in those instances so much as we blame the individual doctors doing that shit and the groups that perpetuate it.Would I go get acupuncture treatment now?
Maybe if I had certain assurances like clean needle use and the use is limited to areas like joints but even then probably not until I see better evidence of cause and effect for the treatment. I just keep an open mind to avoid what could be inherent biases that would discount the idea in it’s entirety instead of trying to understand why there are some successes. Kinda like how I’m not going to go eat a bunch of herbs from traditional Chinese medicine but would be interested in understanding how the components of those herbs affect the body to see if there is something that can be pulled and enhanced to modern medical treatment.
The truth is darker: For everybody who talks about the silly stuff there are two who don’t, you just don’t hear them cuz they ain’t talking. Source: Closeted Quacko
How do you know? People could believe in all kinds of dumb shit and just not tell you.
I mean those types already gave us the Bible, how much worse could it get?
The problem is that flat-earthers aren’t just that. They usually believe in all kinds of other kooky stuff as well, and some of those beliefs pose an active danger to society.
Exactly, the same mindset that takes you to “The entire geophysical establishment is wrong/lying about the shape of the Earth, so I’ll listen to this Youtube crank who says it’s a disc instead” will also lead you to things like “The entire medical establishment is wrong/lying about the effectiveness of masks & vaccines, so I’ll listen to this podcast crank hawking horse dewormer instead.”
Don’t need a podcast when the president at the time was telling them to take the horse dewormer.
There’s always an implied “them” hiding the conspiracy as well. It’s just a couple of short steps from flat earth to “jews will not replace us”.
To be fair, the medical establishment did lie about it, but not because of some weird “big mask” or “big pharma” conspiracy, but because they have a tangible impact when used by large groups and overselling them would have better outcomes than underselling them.
It’s a classic problem those in power have to deal with: tell the truth and get an underwhelming response, or oversell and get a better response.
Don’t take horse dewormers though, that’s just dumb.
Overselling something that is true is not the same as flat out lying about the efficacy of a random pharmaceutical. Not even in the same neighbourhood.
You can surely at least understand the mindset there. Basically, when party A is obviously lying, a party B that calls them out appears more trustworthy, and it’s easier to overlook the obvious flaws in party B’s alternative. Here’s the logic, specific to vaccines:
- group A claims vaccines are effective against contracting a given disease
- group B points to evidence of actual effectiveness, which vastly falls short of what the public thinks
- group B proposes an alternative to the vaccine, implying it’s effective and that group A doesn’t want others to know about it
- group A attacks group B’s alternative
This creates an us vs them situation, so if you already distrust group A somewhat, it’s easy to side w/ group B, assuming you have no actual knowledge to parse the available information. The same logic works with anything, you just need a little bit of distrust w/ some authority, evidence of false/misleading statements, and a seemingly credible alternative.
The trick is to not lie/be misleading in the first place so you don’t break the trust. Trust takes years to build and a moment to break, so you need a very good reason to break the trust.
No, I really can’t understand the mindset. Especially not in the face of the constant undermining of trust by certain elements of society, including when they’re in government. We didn’t just arrive here for no reason. The same people who have eroded the trustworthiness of government and authority (on purpose, see Reagan) over decades are the ones who now exploit the results of their actions, for their own gain.
If, in your scenario, group B was on the level, it would be a different story. But they aren’t. If A oversold their claim, B would have massively oversold theirs. And that was easy to prove and has been proven. B also just didn’t oversell their own claim, they also exaggerated the claim that they refuted to something that, in this form, was never said - standard MO.
There is no trick to this. Being factual and getting people to believe you is much harder than telling an easy but good-sounding lie and getting people to believ you.
If A oversold their claim, B would have massively oversold theirs. And that was easy to prove and has been proven
Right. But if A is supposed to be the trusted authority and B proves they aren’t trustworthy, you’re more likely to not believe criticisms of B because “the establishment” has already been proven untrustworthy. That’s how conspiracies gain traction, and any amount of hiding of information gives fuel to detractors.
So people are going to ignore criticism of B because they’ll feel that B is the “underdog” being attacked by “the establishment.” That’s how these things work.
There is no trick to this. Being factual and getting people to believe you is much harder than telling an easy but good-sounding lie and getting people to believ you.
Sure, but trust is earned. You can’t lie 5% of the time and expect people to believe everything you say, if they find out about that 5%, the other 95% will be called into question. So you need to reserve the lies for when they really count.
Lying will work in the short-term, but it has big consequences in the long-term, so if you’re a long-term entity (e.g. the CDC, FBI, etc), you need to be very careful about how people interpret your message.
Yup, the root of flat earth conspiracy y theories is that some group is fooling everyone to enrich themselves. If you keep scratching through the layers it’s always jews that are behind it.
It’s just antisemitism cloaked in a ridiculous conspiracy.
On the one hand, yeah. Worrying about stuff that you have barely any control over won’t get you far. But on the other hand, that guy’s vote counts as much as yours. And if he already believes such silly conspiracy theories as the flat earth theory, he will be easily swayed by whoever is the loudest contrarian.
Yah, it’s not so much what he believes, but that he displays a lack of critical thinking skills or even common sense. That’s just how it came to the surface.
Right and that should be the target of our efforts. Not fighting over scientific research they’ve already decided to reject. Encourage them to think more critically. You can only encourage someone when you have their ear. You only have someone’s ear when they’re comfortable around you. Demeaning someone’s intelligence and telling them their world view is a toxic lie, is a quick way to convince them they’ll only ever be at odds with you.
the challenge isn’t to let him enjoy life with his stupid ass conspiracy, it’s to get him to realize for himself that he’s been duped by both strangers on the internet and Conservative conspiracies. Deradicalizing and then radicalizing is hard as fuck
This guy’s vote counts as much as yours. I.E. next to nothing.
Depends on where you live. California, Texas? Yeah close to nothing in comparison with someone from Wisconsin. For some reason that I keep getting told isn’t political favoritism.
I love how it is considered to be intellectually superior even though you’re stating easily verifiable facts that we also should have learned while being kids.
Fuck that. You’re wrong, and here’s why.
Just because they set the bar low, doesn’t mean it’s not still intellectual superiority to step over it. The fact of the matter, as you pointed out, is that they were taught everything you’re about to say in elementary school. The fact that they didn’t learn the earth is round implies there’s more going on in their head than a lack of information.
I’m inferring from your tone that you’re not planning to compassionately listen to their perspective to provide constructive criticism. So yeah, it sounds like you’re going to spend a few minutes calling them stupid. Which has no benefit other than stroking the intellectual part of your ego. It actually will likely make the world a worse place, because you’ll present yourself to them as someone they don’t want to be like. Further entrenching them in their views.
While I understand where you are coming from, and respect you for your perspective, I disagree.
See, science does not care about feelings. It’s not that it makes me feel smarter, as I probably learned 90% of the things I know the hard way. I learned the hard way, because I USED to think I was smart or clever. Now, I don’t think like that any more. Now, I realize that every day I can learn something new and that I will never know anything expertly.
If someone calls you out, because you’re clearly saying stupid things, you should probably realize that maybe you ARE wrong and to maybe educate yourself further, so the next time you don’t look like a fool.
It is not my responsibility to baby an adult who has never had their beliefs challenged.
Yeah, same respect. I get it. But do you think you are the first person to tell them the earth is round? What are you actually attempting to accomplish when you speak to this person?
But he votes and talks to other voters. Our lives are in their vocal minority hands.
Flat earthers generally vote for people who are hell-bent on erasing workers’ rights. That’s why I would be arguing.
Yeah, the whole “live and let live” movement has removed the social barriers to being a fucking moron. Ignorant people holding onto stupid beliefs should be made to feel bad by the people around them.
The whole “live and let live” movement normalized far-right talking points in my country, then the “live and let live” movement suddenly disappeared…
I don’t think one follows from the other though eh?
