- cross-posted to:
- world@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- world@lemmy.world
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This is completely stupid. If Hamas are hiding in hospitals then surely there’s a better fucking way to target them than trying to blow the whole fucking place up. One way would be to send a strike team, after all Israel and Mossad are “famous” for hunting terrorists down after the Munich bombing at the Olympics. Yet the same country can only now resort to cutting off infrastructure and bombing refugee camps, ambulances, schools and hospitals plus which is killing aid workers and drs.
That would only make sense if the goal wasn’t revenge and ethnic cleansing.
If only you were there to solve it…
This is a war, so you are basically talking about an urban assault involving thousands of IDF infantry kicking doors down house to house and shooting anyone who shoots at them.
The US did that in Fallujah, and it’s pretty gnarly. US had 500 casualties IIRC. The US also told all the residents to evacuate Fallujah before the operation went down.
That’s why they’re using this strategy. If there were a ton of Israeli soldier casualties on Bibi’s watch, the military might let the public remove him from power, or do it themselves. Netanyahu has every motivation to bomb and starve Gaza. The actual solution would have been to build up Palestinian groups who oppose Hamas and prefer a two state solution, but that isn’t the IDF’s goal. Their refusal to do so over the last few decades not only led to this war, but should have told supportive nations that too many Zionists are genocidal theocrats.
The most economical endgame for Israel’s current military actions is the forceful expulsion of almost all Palestinians from Gaza and the West Bank. Occupation is a bad option. They’ve undermined the movement for coexistence so badly that even a total reversal of policy would be difficult. It’s so fucking sad.
Meh. God will punish him surely.
I don’t care what God will do to him; I just want to get these awful people out of power so they’ll stop killing children. God making things right in the afterlife isn’t a universally agreed upon truth, so we must do the right thing regardless of its existence. If God is good, surely he’d want us to make our mortal existence less miserable and more meaningful, right?
I prefer not to attempt to assert my morality upon a higher power
The actual solution would have been to build up Palestinian groups who oppose Hamas and prefer a two state solution, but that isn’t the IDF’s goal.
This idea supposes that Palestinians themselves are somehow too incompetent to do it without external help. Which reality seems to agree with.
Not really. Israel has attacked and undermined the PLO for decades, almost more than Hamas. It’s the situation of Israel stepping on the throats of all Palestinians, even those who want to work towards peace. The two state solution requires Israel’s support, and when they don’t give it, those attempting to make it happen on the Palestinian side look like fools. Israel has the power to allow for peace, but they make it near impossible.
Palestinians can’t make a two state solution happen without the cooperation of the other state. That’s what two state means.
Hmmm, what reason would Israel have to regard the PLO as the terrorist group it once was?
I mean, they did sign the Oslo accords and recognized the PLO as the official representatives of Palestinians.
America tried bombing a million innocent civilians from the comfort of their lazy ass Texas seat too. Remind me whether they won that war. Surely they didn’t leave a giant power vacuum and created many more resistance fighters.
Majority of deaths in iraq were during the civil war and the insurgency that followed, the 1 million figure that gets banded about with little evidence is in no way “civillians killed by NATO”.
America purposely targeted civilian infrastructure at the start of their attack to cripple and kill the population and ruin their economy. They did not target military goals.
The 1 million figure is widely accepted.
I don’t disagree, but given that the majority of the deaths happened uears later I think its niave to suggest that the USA killed 1 million iraqis.
The irony of hiding in a hospital when you literally cause war.
Doesn’t it make more sense to argue that the person dropping bombs just doesn’t want to admit they missed the target and fucked thousands of people because they’re shit at their job? If you were fighting an alien or hunting a foreign agent, and you screwed up and accidentally shot your own family down in flames, you’d probably be rather embarrassed, I sure would be too haha
But hey it’s alright nobody will judge even if they knew because the truth is that some jobs suck and just get glamorised on the news and in the media precisely because even the very few who make the cut can still be considered competent
Why do you blame Israel for the actions of their enemies?
Oh so bombing the hospitals and killing doctors and children was all fine then
Do you have any proof of bombed hospitals? On all of the photos/videos they are perfectly intact. That’s why hamas members like to sit in them ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Yeah, but they were brown doctors and children, so it’s OK
Edit: did I really need a /s?
No, you need better jokes.
US Cops shout “stop resisting” as they beat their victims, then later ‘deplore’ that they ‘brought it on themselves’ “Hamas should stop resisting” oh the humanity
Hamas is not a victim in any sense of the word.
2 million people, half of which are kids, being brought up with missile strikes, blockades, and slow starvation are definitely victims compared to the professional liars that are the IDF
Hamas is a terrorist group that went out of their way to kill and kidnap innocent people, wanted to provoke this exact Israeli response, and want the war to continue unabated.
Palestinians are civilians. They live under a dictatorship by Hamas which does not allow dissent. They’re being slaughtered indiscriminately by Israel.
Hamas has stockpiles of supplies that they aren’t sharing with the Palestinians, even though they wanted Israel to cut off all supplies. They steal aid that’s meant for the civilians. And they dismantle projects meant to help Palestinians to make into weapons.
These are not the same group. Hamas is absolutely not a victim, but the Palestinian people absolutely are. Don’t conflate the two. The Palestinians are victims of Hamas as well.
TIL Hamas has 2 million members.
Well according to Israeli media, which lists every single dead civilian as a “dead terrorist”, that’s exactly the logic being applied by the Israelis in power.
And they’re absolutely fucking wrong. The terrorists have a dictatorship over Palestinians. They are not the same, and their numbers shouldn’t be mixed together even if the genocidal IDF wants to.
I’m absolutely against israel’s continued operations in Gaza and even I’m not trying to paint Hamas as the innocent victims here. The fact is, the people of Gaza have been victimized by Hamas first, then the IDF.
Another fact is that only IDF is trying to fix the situation. And third one is that the biggest reason the left is defending Hamas is historical: because PLO was leftist, modern leftists must defend the current incarnation of it.
I wish the left grew some actual values, they seemed to lost them all in 1990. Doesn’t matter if they’re something I disagree with. Just have something instead of mindlessly repeating what you did back when Communism was still a thing.
You have no idea what the left is. Your image of the left is a caricature created to make you feel morally superior. No one gives any sort of shit about the PLO at all, they’ve been irrelevant the whole time we’ve been alive. No one is defending Hamas for any reason at all let alone because they’re some sort of inheritor of a leftist organization that, again, ceased existing before many of us started.
The left, the real left that exists outside your fever dreams, is talking about all the people who aren’t Hamas, aren’t PLO, but are still being forced from their homes at gunpoint. The Real Left That Exists is wondering why an ancestral claim to the land is valid for Israelis, but only for Israelis. The Real Left That Exists is talking about the Real Dead Babies That Exist, the thousands of children that have been killed by indiscriminate bombing and dozens of open war crimes. If you’re going to take sides against us, put your straw man away and take sides against us, you coward. Argue against what we’re saying. Tell that 8 year old Palestinian in Gaza that if he didn’t want his whole family to be killed he shouldn’t have voted for Hamas 9 years before he was born. Tell the Palestinians in the West Bank, where Hamas never gained a foothold, that if they didn’t want to live under martial law that they should have somehow stopped Gazans from voting for Hamas 17 years ago.
No one is defending Hamas for any reason at all
Their terrorist attack from about a month ago has been publically admired by many lefties and academics in the west. Or perhaps these people are not the “real left” that you’re referring to?
There are extremists on both sides. Would you like to stick to relevant voices or are you ready to defend members of the Israeli government that call all Palestinians animals and are flat out calling for a genocide?
Oh Israel has done a bang-up job on Hamas PR, I bet they are getting tons of donations now and secret help. When you blow up kids and doctors and nurses, people will befriend the enemy of my enemy situation.
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Are you implying that there are 9 year olds who are members of a terrorist organization? I wouldn’t go that far when describing how utterly evil they are.
Despite it being a good Reuters article, people aren’t even reading the second half of the damn title lol.
Edit: Who am I kidding? We know they are but they’re going to ignore it for a reason lol.
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Don’t care, dont fucking bomb hospitals you soulless ghouls
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Why are we believing Israel at its word when it’s proven they’re habitual, professional liars who all but admitted their own role in orchestrating the majority of the civilian deaths on 7th October?
I’m 100% certain this claim will be debunked in a week when someone proves they’ve just decorated an ICU ward with Hamas flags or some shit. I’ll remember all the bloodthirsty pricks who woke up excited at the prospect of denying civilians the right to life and freedom over something they know in their hearts is probably a falsehood.
So hamas is basically keeping these people hostage in there, and I don’t see you blaming them…
- Why are we believing an equally soulless ghoul on the internet? I’m 100% certain that in a week, this derp will be disproven and he will disappear into the ether, probably making another account so he can continue to derp around Lemmy. See how that works? Shhh…
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Does anyone have any evidence that this was actually taking place? It seems like the most moronic and easy excuse to get away with war crimes. Hey did you just blow up that school?? Yes…but umm…Hamas was there! No wait… it was their rocket that did it…yeah wasn’t us it was them!
Why does everyone think Israel a notorious nation for spying and being shitty is 100% honest in their findings?
The US has confirmed it and presumably the EU
Both were skeptical of Israel’s video showing rockets being fired from the hospital due to their track record
Depends on what you want to be true. CNN recently posted a bunch of videos. Peruse the site. link
5 AKs is absolutely not enough reason to shell a hospital. That’s fucking ridiculous.
Have you perused yet? You really should. And I’m glad you are putting arbitrary limits on what is good and bad. Nice!
here’s a non-arbitrary limit: don’t bomb fucking hospitals.
But there has to be a limit, I’m not saying Israel is right but if I write the word hospital on a tank and drive it into battle then that hospital is going to get bombed, it’s possible that they’ll wait until I’ve fired a shot if I’m fighting an especially restrained army.
So since there obviously is a line so we need to think about where it is in a realistic and sensible sense.
“don’t bomb hospitals.” -OK, champ, then what should they do? “Send in the special forces.” -That will lead to more casualties on the Israeli side. “Send in the specialer forces.” -Thanks for playing ‘As the Derps Comment’. In the next episode, we’ll get another brilliant take from another top mind on the internet.
Oh no, not casualties! In a war?!? Whatever will we do!
War crimes of expediency are still war crimes. Just ask the Nazis we hung at Nuremberg for their occupation tactics.
Arbitrary? Are you insane?
I would have gone with 4 AK and a slingshot just to be sure everyone knew I was completely ridiculous.
“Israelshows alleged Hamas ‘armory’”
Again this is just CNN doing CNN things, they are going to parrot whatever they are told is the official US narrative, just like Fox would do with Trump or whatever GOP people want. I was still horrified the US and MSM went with the Israeli narrative before the investigation was over, that smelled of cronyism and covering up, pretty bad day for the Biden WH.
Sure sure, who knows unless it’s posted on your favorite news site. CNN sucks but they have the videos. If NPR reports it then you should probably pay attention.
Here’s a Times of Israel article with a video in it that claims to show the tunnels under the Rantisi hospital: https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-hamas-operated-command-center-likely-held-hostages-under-gaza-kids-hospital/
There’s assorted cuts and stuff can obviously be staged, but…
Hamas and the Gaza Health ministry have invited the international community to check this themselves and have apparently provided tours and proof from long ago that that AlShifa hospital has nothing underneath it. The company constructing the Indonesian hospital also denied that any tunnels were underneath and debunked the video of Osrael claiming there is a tunnel entrance there. The EU should check first. There isn’t much evidence for tunnels under hospitals and almost all Israel “evidence” provided is such low quality. Not sure how “smart” they are when any 14 year old with a shred of knowledge on using audio editors would be able to tell that the phone call was patched up together from two unrelated ones.
What phone call are you talking about? There was a call relating to the explosion at al Ahli hospital where some people claimed the audio was edited but the only reasoning they had was that one speaker was in one channel and the other speaker in the other channel. That is exactly what you would expect from a wiretap though - the signal for the two speakers is not present in the same wire at the same time, so it needs to be assembled from two separate data sources.
what you would expect from a wiretap though
Source? I don’t really know how wiretaps work.
That audio call has been criticized for all sorts of problems. The dialect, the audio put together, the vagueness of the discussion, the fact that the two people sound like two neighbours chatting and not two vetted resistance fighters, etc.
Another example is Israel’s most recent claim that the hospital (Al Shifa this time) refused to receive fuel. The phone call is only a few seconds long, the word “fuel” is never mentioned in it, and as an Arabic speaker, I recognized immediately that they were arguing about the “amount” and not the fuel itself. Yet the IDF have published this as “evidence” that the hospital is refusing the fuel delivery, allowing more babies to die. I think it’s quite laughable. Turned out later that the IDF promised 2k liters, then decided to send only 300 liters, which would have powered the hospital for half an hour… totally ignoring that the main issue is that people are being sniped inside the hospital itself, and the yard is filling up with dead and decomposing bodies, some shot for simply stepping foot outside.
I’ve considered writing about this at more length. I think the Israeli propaganda machine has the quality you would expect from a hobbyist, yet with high aspirations.
The quality and absurdity of IDF propaganda recently gives the impression they don’t take it seriously either. It used to be pretty convincing, but I think they’re at the point where everyone running the show is an extremist who can’t consider the outside perspective. So it becomes this schizophrenic thing where the propaganda is directed at a hypothetical viewer they’ve envisioned who doesn’t really exist. Some of the stuff showing up on my YouTube is straight up uncanny valley weirdness.
Also if everything the IDF is promoting here are the true facts of the situation it still doesn’t justify their actions to the world. The number of people who are finally realizing this is at least a good thing. The response to ceasefire protests from the Israel propaganda machine shares the schizophrenic tone with some of the propaganda as well, to the point where they’re calling Jewish groups non-Jews and equating peace with anti-Semitism.
I haven’t been following the bullshit said by the IDF, but if they’re claiming tunnels as the main reason for bombing hospitals, that’s ghoulish. They can easily say that Hamas fired rockets from the roof or that they stored weapons amongst patients, and it would be hard to disprove those claims. Don’t find evidence of rockets on the roof? Hamas cleaned up the evidence. Don’t find evidence of weapons in the hospitals? They moved them. Tunnels aren’t like that. Even if sealed off or destroyed, they’ll be physical evidence that’s hard to get rid of. I guess the typical excuses just weren’t cutting it. Even if half the patients were Hamas militants, there’s still a ton of innocent people.
This is the best summary I could come up with:
BRUSSELS, Nov 12 (Reuters) - The European Union on Sunday condemned Hamas for using “hospitals and civilians as human shields” in Gaza, while also urging Israel to show “maximum restraint” to protect civilians.
Hospitals in the north of the Palestinian enclave are blockaded by Israeli forces and barely able to care for those inside, according to medical staff.
“The EU condemns the use of hospitals and civilians as human shields by Hamas,” European Union foreign policy chief Josep Borrell said in a statement issued on behalf of the 27-nation bloc.
At the same time, he urged Israel to exercise maximum restraint, stressing the obligation under international humanitarian law to protect hospitals, medical supplies and civilians inside hospitals.
“These hostilities are severely impacting hospitals and taking a horrific toll on civilians and medical staff,” Borrell warned.
“In this context, we urge Israel to exercise maximum restraint to ensure the protection of civilians.”
The original article contains 245 words, the summary contains 151 words. Saved 38%. I’m a bot and I’m open source!
restraint in what?
"Kill 20% less civilians please’ . What fuckin dumb rhetoric is this. It’s like we live the end of times and words have lost meaning
What kind of restraint can israel have? if hamas was 1% of the population, after all these atrocities it will be 99% of the population. Imagine someone killing your children and then you re supposed to go on living your life because “well shit happened”.
Israel has an incentive to exterminate a very large part of the population, especially the young male population before this is over to weaken the next hamas. If they have another plan for post-war life, it’s not clear how they imagine life with palestinians near or far.
Restraint as in don’t blow up the hospital just because the terrorists are hiding in it
What an incredibly shit and inhumane take
Finally! Not that this matters.
If another country invades your country, certain parts of your own country are off limits to you i guess.
If they had any sense they’d go for a one state solution with negotiation on how to create one set of laws for all and fix the shit they just blew up rather than keep bombing but hey man, people prefer to keep fighting just to save face
isn’t israel simultaneously bragging about killing tens of thousands of Gazans and a few dozen Hamas agents?
Where?
In his head…
> force all Palestinians into a small corner
> Palestinians fight back from said corner because they have no where to go
> muh hoomyan shilds111!!!11
I suppose the Poles in Warsaw were to blame for uprising against the Germans in WWII?
I really wonder how many of those 11.000+ dead people are actually active Hamas fighters. I would be very surprised if they are more than a couple of hundred.
But oh wait Hamas’ military wing is 30K, are they going to kill 30 times more?
And don’t you think that once Israel is happy with the amount of destruction on the north it would simply do the same with the south?
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